Prosecution witness John Sayer - direct and cross.
Prosecution witneess John Sayer - Direct, cross and redirect. By Tomas Benevidez (prosecution) and Sara Montoya (defense).
Judge Baca: The State’s next witness? Your next witness?
Tomas Benevidez: Yes, your Honor, we’d call John Sayer.
Judge Baca: Alright. John Sayer. John Sayer, thank you.
Judge Baca swears in John Sayer.
Judge Baca: You may have a seat. State your full name for us please.
John Sayer: My name is John Sayer.
Tomas Benevidez: Can you spell your last name for the Court?
John Sayer: S-A-Y-E-R.
Tomas Benevidez: Mr. Sayer were you a member of a religious community called Our Lord of Righteousness Church?
John Sayer: Yes sir.
Tomas Benevidez: How long were you a member?
John Sayer: About sixteen years.
Tomas Benevidez: Are you married?
John Sayer: Yes sir.
Tomas Benevidez: Who is your spouse?
John Sayer: Elsa Sayer.
Tomas Benevidez: And do you have children?
John Sayer: Yes sir.
Tomas Benevidez: How many children?
John Sayer: Two girls.
Tomas Benevidez: And what are their names?
John Sayer: A.S. and L.S.
Tomas Benevidez: Does L.S. go by another name?
John Sayer: Uhm... She goes by Healed or Eleana.
Tomas Benevidez: I’m sorry what was the other name?
John Sayer: Eleana.
Tomas Benevidez: Going back to... You were with the church for sixteen years.... Can you kinda give your background on how you came to be a member of Our Lord of Righteousness Church?
John Sayer: Well, actually my mom got introduced to the church first and then we got introduced to the church and we decided to join the church. And we were in there sixteen years, basically.
Tomas Benevidez: What did you do in the church?
John Sayer: Uhm... well, we had meetings and...
Tomas Benevidez: What kind of meetings?
John Sayer: Most of the time it was just on Saturdays, we’d have church and sometimes we’d have other religious holiday meetings.
Tomas Benevidez: Where would you have church at?
John Sayer: Well, it depended on what town we were in. Sometimes we’d have it in a barn or just a big shed basically. Sometimes we’d have it in a house. Sometimes we’d just have it outside.
Tomas Benevidez: And when you were first in the church, where were you at? Where was the church located?
John Sayer: Sand Point, Idaho.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And about how many members did you have?
John Sayer: There was probably close to seventy, maybe.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And from Sand Point, Idaho, where did you move or were you always there in the winter and the summer?
John Sayer: No. We went north and south for summer and winter. The summer we’d go to Sand Point, Idaho. The winter, we’d go to either Yuma Arizona for a few years and then we started going to Phoenix, Arizona.
Tomas Benevidez: Did the community all live together or did they live in separate places?
John Sayer: In Sand Point or I’m not sure... ?
Tomas Benevidez: In Sand Point and when you travelled in the winter.
John Sayer: A lot of times, when we’d go south, we’d separate in little groups. Sometimes, we’d all end up in Arizona or like Yuma, Arizona, we’d have meetings and stuff.
Tomas Benevidez: When did you move to Clayton or Union County?
John Sayer: We moved to Union County in two thousand (2000).
Tomas Benevidez: And where did you move to?
John Sayer: We actually moved forty miles... kinda north of Clayton.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. But it’s in Union County New Mexico?
John Sayer: Yes sir.
Tomas Benevidez: And you moved there in two thousand (2000)?
John Sayer: Yes sir.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok, was everybody from the church, did they all move there, the seventy members?
John Sayer: Yeah. Well, no, not that many. I would say, by then, there was probably maybe sixty in the church or so.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And where did you move to? Can you describe where you moved to?
John Sayer: Uhm... it’s... everything was kinda in a U shape on the land and we were parked down at the bottom of the U shape.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok, was it an acre of land? Do you know how much it?
John Sayer: It was... we were about on sixty acres or so.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok and did you all live in different places on that sixty acres or did you have a specific area where houses were?
John Sayer: No. We, at that time, we all lived in fifth wheels.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok.
John Sayer: And each family had their own fifth wheel.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And did the defendant live in a fifth wheel?
John Sayer: Ah.. yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And what happened after that?
John Sayer: I’m not sure what you’re...
Tomas Benevidez: I mean, did you always live in fifth wheels? Did you uproot to houses?
John Sayer: Well, we did for quite a few years. In two thousand (2000), we moved there we lived in the fifth wheel. And then about a year after that we moved off we lived in a house for about two years in Capulin.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok.
John Sayer: Then, we moved back into our fifth wheel and moved back to the land and we were there for, till two thousand six (2006) and then we moved off the land after that.
Tomas Benevidez: Did anything change when you moved to the land?
John Sayer: Well, yeah. In ninety nine (99), we had a meeting that Michael suggested that we go to wearing dresses and the guys would, we’re suppose to wear nicer shirts, you know, not so like tank tops and stuff like that. We weren’t supposed to wear that kind of stuff. But yeah, in two thousand (2000), we kinda went to that clothing style.
Tomas Benevidez: Anything else?
John Sayer: Most the time the guys wore beards. The girls usually had long hair or stuff but it wasn’t... it wasn’t a law really. I mean, the girls could wear short hair if they wanted to, but most of them chose to wear long hair.
Tomas Benevidez: Were there any significant changes to Wayne Bent or Michael?
John Sayer: Well, when we first moved there we had a meeting and Michael said that he was setting in his chair at home in Safford, where he was at the time and he said that God came down on him and told him he was the Messiah and he said that he kinda had a hard time with it at first and then he prayed about it and decided that he was Messiah.
Tomas Benevidez: Who’s the Messiah?
John Sayer: Ah... God.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Can you become the Messiah?
John Sayer: Uhm... yeah, I supposed to be able to.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Did anybody else on the land become the Messiah?
John Sayer: Uhm... well not exact like Michael, but I guess so, yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: What was different with Michael?
John Sayer: Well, for one thing everybody was supposed to divorce their wife or husband and I didn’t really see that Michael did that.
Tomas Benevidez: He didn’t divorce his wife?
John Sayer: Not in the way everybody else was supposed to, I guess.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And if they were supposed to separate from their spouse, who were they supposed to be with?
John Sayer: Just God.
Tomas Benevidez: Was there an incident where there were, there was seven virgins?
John Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Who directed that there should be seven virgins?
John Sayer: Well, it came from Michael.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok.
John Sayer: I guess... I don’t know who else.
Tomas Benevidez: What was what came from Michael?
John Sayer: Well, what I understood is there was supposed to be seven virgins and they were supposed to be married to only God. And they were then to pour out the seven plagues and, the seven last plagues and then they were supposed to be married to God.
Tomas Benevidez: And did they get married to God?
John Sayer: Well, they’re supposed to be married to Michael... Anyway, I don’t know.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Were they supposed to lay naked with him or consummate with him?
John Sayer: Well, it wasn’t that way at first. It kinda... we had a meeting one time where... where he... said well, somebody had suggested that they had gotten naked and it was with God. And then it kinda rippled out through everybody and pretty soon the seven were wanting to lay naked with Michael.
Tomas Benevidez: Were your daughters part of that seven?
John Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Who was the spiritual leader of your community?
John Sayer: Michael.
Tomas Benevidez: Who was the community leader of your community?
John Sayer: Pretty much Michael.
Tomas Benevidez: Can you give examples of how he would direct things?
John Sayer: I’m not sure what you mean.
Tomas Benevidez: Were you supposed to work?
John Sayer: Yeah, we could work at first. There was sometimes like we had a time when it was called the thirteen thirty five (13 35). It was a spiritual holiday and for like a month, we weren’t supposed to work.
Tomas Benevidez: Who told you, you weren’t supposed to work?
John Sayer: It was just pretty much common knowledge, I guess. I don’t know. It was just Michael said that we weren’t supposed to go to town during that time. We were supposed to be in prayer and prepare for the thirteen thirty five.
Tomas Benevidez: And did you continue to work?
John Sayer: During that time, no. No, I didn’t.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Were there other times that you had to work?
John Sayer: There was other times I chose to work. Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. How did you communicate with each other?
John Sayer: Phone, email. There was usually we had a web site, where everybody could get on and just communicate with each other, chat, and post little quotes and letters and things.
Tomas Benevidez: How did religious communications happen?
John Sayer: Usually, we had a meeting in the house or by that time, we had a barn.
Tomas Benevidez: Was there a meeting about the seven virgins?
John Sayer: Uh, yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: And who led that meeting?
John Sayer: Michael.
Tomas Benevidez: Who said they needed seven virgins?
John Sayer: I think it was Michael.
Tomas Benevidez: Did L.S. and A.S. ever disclose to you that they laid naked with Wayne Bent, Michael?
John Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: When did they do that?
John Sayer: It was about a month after it actually happened.
Tomas Benevidez: And how’d you feel about that?
John Sayer: Well, I was upset, basically, because I felt like they went behind my back to do it.
Tomas Benevidez: You feel that Michael had any influence over that?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you trust Michael?
John Sayer: Uhm... I do, but I don’t.
Tomas Benevidez: Why do you and why don’t you?
John Sayer: Well, I trust him, because I feel like he’s still a friend to me ,but yet I don’t trust him, because I don’t I felt like him and the girls went behind my back to do this that God was telling them to do.
Tomas Benevidez: Was there pressure on the land to do things?
John Sayer: Oh yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: How?
John Sayer: Usually by a meeting or posts. It kinda pushed you. I’m not sure. There was a type of pressure there, yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok.
John Sayer: There wasn’t necessarily a, "Do this," or "Do that." It was more of a subtle.
Tomas Benevidez: Were you ever meant to feel bad about yourself or bad about your actions?
John Sayer: Oh yeah. Yeah. Michael told us a lot of times we were just dogs in heat or we were just, just living our human lust.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And how about now? How do you think he feels about you now?
John Sayer: Mmm... I’m not sure. He probably still likes me, I guess. I don’t know.
Tomas Benevidez: How do you feel about him?
John Sayer: Well, I don’t hate him.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. You mentioned that you kinda trust him and you kinda don’t. How do you not kinda trust him?
John Sayer: Well, I don’t trust him with my girls.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Do you feel he had influence over you?
John Sayer: A type of influence, yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you feel he had influence over your girls?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: What is your understanding of what happened with your girls?
John Sayer: Well, I understood that L.S. laid naked with him first. L.S., what I understood is... L.S. got naked in his room and laid on his bed and he was naked, or he got naked, or something, and he laid a sheet in between them and he got on top of her and I guess laid his head on her chest or something and I guess they talked or something, I don’t know. I don’t what actually took place. I wasn’t there.
Tomas Benevidez: And with A.S.?
John Sayer: With A.S., what I understood is, he wasn’t. That she got undressed and laid on his bed. He had his clothes on and he put his hand on her chest and talked to her I guess.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. How has this affected you, your girls and you as a family?
John Sayer: Well it’s been hard. In a way, it’s I can’t really trust my youngest daughter especially. Because to me, it’s like she wants to sleep with an older guy that is way past her age group.
Tomas Benevidez: How does she feel about Wayne Bent or Michael?
John Sayer: Oh, she’s in love with him.
Tomas Benevidez: Has she told you that?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: What does she want to do in the future?
John Sayer: Well, personally, I think she’s wanting to go back to the land.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok, and do what?
John Sayer: Live there, I guess. I don’t know what her plans are.
Tomas Benevidez: Pass the witness, your Honor.
Cross examination of John Sayer – by Ms. Sara Montoya, defense attorney.
Judge Baca: Alright. Cross examination?
Ms. Montoya: Good morning.
John Sayer: Good morning.
Ms. Montoya: I want to understand, I want to back over your testimony and I have questions for you as well.
John Sayer: Sure.
Ms. Montoya: You referred to a barn or a big shed that you met in when you were with the church, was that when you were in Sand Point?
John Sayer: Yeah. Actually in Sand Point, we had a, like a barn, and also on the land we had, at Strong City, we had a barn too.
Tomas Benevidez: You called it the barn. Was it a barn for animals?
John Sayer: No... no. In Sand Point, all it was, was just a like a three car garage and it was just empty. It had a concrete floor. You know, it was nice. Sand Point it was just, it was kinda like a house, but they called it a barn.
Ms. Montoya: And what about at Strong City? What was the barn like there?
John Sayer: Oh, it was nice. They had carpet in it, you know, they had chairs. I mean it was nice.
Ms. Montoya: May I approach your Honor?
Judge Baca: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: I’m handing you what’s been marked Defendant’s exhibit...
Tomas Benevidez: Wait, your Honor. I object.
Judge Baca: Did you show it to the State first?
Sidebar
Ms. Montoya: Would you please (unintelligible words) Without showing it to the jury, tell us what is depicted in the photograph?
John Sayer: I don’t know, it’s just everybody outside the barn.
Ms. Montoya: Is that the barn at Strong City?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. Tell us what the barn is like, because the jury has no idea.
John Sayer: Right. It just looks like a house. It’s not really a house. It doesn’t have water. It doesn’t have sewer or anything. It does have electricity. It’s... you know, got a speaker system.
Ms. Montoya: Is it carpeted?
John Sayer: Yes. Yes it’s carpeted. It’s got nice chairs in it.
Ms. Montoya: And is that where you held your meetings?
John Sayer: At first, no. When we first moved to the land, no. But, yes.
Ms. Montoya: Was it there when you first moved to the land, I guess?
John Sayer: No.
Ms. Montoya: So it was built later?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: Was it built for the purpose of holding meetings?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: And the meetings were held there?
John Sayer: Correct.
Judge Baca: Let me ask you, Ms. Montoya: , is this document, or this photograph, is it numbered?
Ms. Montoya: Yes sir. It was marked as Defendant’s exhibit eight.
Judge Baca: Exhibit eight.
Ms. Montoya: Now why was it that you would go north and south before you moved to Strong City?
John Sayer: A lot of it was the weather. Sand Point Idaho is not very friendly to RV’s. You know, it’s very cold and they get a lot of snow there. And so, pretty much, the whole church would go north and south.
Ms. Montoya: Was the whole... that’s not really normal for people who have lived in one place for a long. Why was it necessary to move back and forth? Why didn’t you just live... find a town and live there?
John Sayer: Well, like I said, the RV’s were, I mean they only have two inch walls. So they are very cold in the winter time. And Sand Point Idaho’s not friendly there. I mean they get twenty two feet of snow.
Ms. Montoya: So explain to the jury why go back north then why not find a place to live?
John Sayer: Well, Sand Point is where Michael originated. And so, his house was there and so, he had bought some property there and for the church and so, we had our meetings there. A lot of times we had camp meetings there and most of the time, that’s when we’d go up there, is usually for a camp meeting or something of that nature.
Ms. Montoya: What’s the difference between a camp meeting and a regular meeting?
John Sayer: Well, a camp meeting usually we’d... sometimes they’d last a week. You know and a meeting usually only lasted a day.
Ms. Montoya: And were these pleasant, these meetings?
John Sayer: Some were, some weren’t.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. And once you moved to Strong City, you said you moved to Capulin for two years and lived in a house in Capulin.
John Sayer: Correct.
Ms. Montoya: Why did you move to Capulin?
John Sayer: I guess because I wanted a house.
Ms. Montoya: And then you went back to the land?
John Sayer: Correct.
Ms. Montoya: Why did you go back to the land?
John Sayer: Well, I was feeling pressured to be there, because we were having quite a few meetings throughout the week. And it was we were thirty miles from the ranch, so it was just easier to move to the ranch for meetings and stuff.
Ms. Montoya: So were these meetings required?
John Sayer: Not necessarily required. It was more like you wanted to be there, because you were afraid if you didn’t, you might miss something and you might go to hell.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. So you didn’t want to miss anything.
John Sayer: No.
Ms. Montoya: And you talked about some changes that occurred, where the women wore dresses and the men wore nicer shirts.
John Sayer: Right.
Ms. Montoya: As opposed to what t-shirts or...
John Sayer: Oh, tank tops, things like that. They were more modest, more modestly clothing is what was required.
Ms. Montoya: And did you have a problem with that?
John Sayer: Well, no, cause we went along with it.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. And you went back to the land. Was it pleasant to live there?
John Sayer: Yeah. There was times where it was stressful.
Ms. Montoya: And what caused the stress.
John Sayer: Usually the meetings or the posts.
Ms. Montoya: Is it because you were afraid of going to hell?
John Sayer: No. It was more like we felt like we were going to hell and if we didn’t get our act together, then we were gonna go to hell.
Ms. Montoya: And what was it about your act that wasn’t together? Were you doing something that made you feel guilty?
John Sayer: Well, not necessarily that. It was just, we just had to have everything right to go to heaven and to do that, you had to be perfect, basically.
Ms. Montoya: But you said you were living, "We were living our human lusts." What was that about?
John Sayer: Well you... working, you know buying things, you know its all part of the human nature, human lust.
Ms. Montoya: So lust didn’t necessarily have to do with sex... it had to do with...
John Sayer: Right, right. Yeah, it was just material gain, basically.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. Now, when you said the seven virgins were to pour out the seven plagues, were you living on the land when all of this was going on?
John Sayer: No. We actually had a house in Clayton New Mexico during that time.
Ms. Montoya: And so how did you find out about this stuff?
John Sayer: Well, we were still going out there on the weekends for church and everything.
Ms. Montoya: When you say we, who are you talking about?
John Sayer: Me and Elsa.
Ms. Montoya: Where were the girls living?
John Sayer: The girls were living on the property at that time.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. And when you were asked whether or not Mr. Wayne Bent was the spiritual leader of the community you said, "He was the spiritual leader."
John Sayer: Right.
Ms. Montoya: Was he the only leader in the community itself?
John Sayer: During that time, yeah.
Ms. Montoya: Ok, but how about now?
Tomas Benevidez: Your Honor, relevance about now?
Judge Baca: What is the relevance?
Ms. Montoya: I’ll withdraw the question (unintelligible word) Is he the only leader that’s ever been in the community of Strong City?
John Sayer: Well, while I was in the church, yeah.
Ms. Montoya: So is it your testimony that he’s the only person in Strong City who has any influence?
John Sayer: No, not necessarily influence.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. And when you said that you were upset because the daughter, your daughters laid naked with Wayne Bent, you said, "They went behind my back to do it." Are you saying the girls went behind your back?
John Sayer: Yeah, pretty much, yeah.
Ms. Montoya: And you say now you don’t trust your younger daughter?
John Sayer: Pretty much.
Ms. Montoya: Why do you not trust the younger daughter, but you trust the older daughter?
John Sayer: Well, because my older daughter’s not wanting to go back out there.
Ms. Montoya: So you have a problem with the younger daughter wanting to live at Strong City?
John Sayer: In a way, yeah.
Ms. Montoya: Isn’t it true that they have different temperaments your two daughters?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. Do you believe that once she is eighteen that the younger daughter should be able to practice religion as she sees fit?
John Sayer: Oh yeah, she’s free to do what she wants.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. And you did testify, you don’t really know what took place when Mr. Wayne Bent was alone with A.S. or alone with L.S.? Is that true?
John Sayer: Well, I wasn’t there. I just heard from what the girls told me.
Ms. Montoya: And the girls actually sat down and told you blow by blow what occurred? Think about that.
John Sayer: Yeah pretty much.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. You had a lengthy conversation and you know what occurred?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Ms. Montoya: And so, when you say he touched them on their chest are you talking here?
John Sayer: Well, I don’t know exactly where, but yeah, he...
Ms. Montoya: Have you seen Wayne Bent touch other people in that manner?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Ms. Montoya: : I’m going to show you what’s been marked as Defendant’s exhibit twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-seven, twenty-eight, twenty-nine, thirty, thirty-one, thirty-two, thirty-four, thirty-five and thirty-six.
Tomas Benevidez: Can I see those? I object to these.
Judge Baca: Alright. At this point in time, what I intend to do is, I will dismiss the jury for lunch. I would like the jury to be... to return for more testimony at one thirty.
(lunch break)
Cross examination of John Sayer continues – Ms. Montoya:
Judge Baca: We are on cross examination of Mr. Sayer. Ms Montoya you may proceed.
Ms. Montoya: Mr. Sayer, I’m going to hand you what has been marked Defendant’s exhibit twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-eight and thirty.
Ms. Montoya hands John Sayer four photographs)
Ms. Montoya: :I’m going to ask you to review those photographs, if you will. There’s one gentleman that appears in all four pictures, do you recognize him?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: And who is that person?
John Sayer: That’s Michael or Wayne Bent.
Ms. Montoya: And the way he’s placing his hand on individuals, is that consistent with the way you’ve seen him touch individuals among the religious group?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: Thank you.
Judge Baca: What photo was that?
Ms. Montoya: Your Honor, it was twenty-five, twenty-six, twenty-eight and thirty.
Judge Baca: Ok. And he referred to all of them?
Ms. Montoya: Yes sir. And in the photographs is it, where would you characterize he placed his hand on them?
John Sayer: On the sternum or on their chest.
Ms. Montoya: Is that the portion of your body that you would refer to as the breast?
John Sayer: Mmm... not exactly.
Ms. Montoya: Thank you.
Tomas Benevidez: I’m sorry. What was the question your Honor?
Judge Baca: Is that a portion of the body that you would refer to as the breast? What characterizes the breast?
Tomas Benevidez: Your Honor, may we approach?
Judge Baca: Certainly.
Sidebar - (Discussion on photographs)
Tomas Benevidez: Your Honor, may we approach?
Judge Baca: Yes.
Sidebar - (Further discussion of photographs)
Ms. Montoya: Mr. Sayer, you said it’s been hard since you left the land, correct?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: What about your life has been hard?
John Sayer: Since I left? Basically, wondering if I was lost or not.
Ms. Montoya: So you still have questions about that in your mind?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Ms. Montoya: You also said you can’t trust your youngest daughter. Why is that?
John Sayer: Because I feel like, that as soon as she turns eighteen, she’s gonna go back out there and Michael will probably sleep with her.
Ms. Montoya: I’m sorry, I didn’t catch the end of that.
John Sayer: And Michael will probably sleep with her.
Ms. Montoya: So, is it not trusting her or not trusting him?
John Sayer: Well, it’s a little of both but uhm...
Ms. Montoya: So, is it your testimony here today, he hasn’t slept with her yet, correct?
John Sayer: No. Not that I know of.
Ms. Montoya: To the best of your own knowledge and belief is your daughter is still a virgin?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: And you testified, you don’t know what her plans are, but once she’s eighteen, she’s free to exercise her own freedom of religion as she sees fit?
John Sayer: Yes.
Ms. Montoya: Thank you, nothing further.
Judge Baca: Alright, redirect?
Redirect examination of John Sayer – Tomas Benevidez
Tomas Benevidez: Thank you. Mr. Sayer, who are the people who made most of the posts?
John Sayer: The majority of them was Michael.
Tomas Benevidez: And the minority of those posts were they done on their own or did they have to have some significance? Was anybody allowed to make postings on the computer?
John Sayer: At times, yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And who had control and authority of what posts went and what didn’t?
John Sayer: What I understood, it... it was Michael or Jeff.
Tomas Benevidez: What kind of leadership role does Jeff have in the community?
John Sayer: I guess you... I’d classify him as a watchdog.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And who was Jeff?
Ms. Montoya: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that.
John Sayer: Jeff Bent. It's Michael’s son.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And you’d classify him as a what?
John Sayer: I guess a watchdog. He kinda keeps everything, if anybody wants to come on the property, he kinda says, "Yes," or "No," or kinda... It’s yeah. Kinda like the game warden, or not the game warden, but the security guard, basically.
Tomas Benevidez: And who does he take his direction from?
John Sayer: From Wayne, I guess.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Can you explain the chair to me?
John Sayer: Uhm... Well, the chair is when you got people would ask you questions, normally pretty personal...
Ms. Montoya: Objection, your Honor.
Judge Baca: Yes. Let me ask you to stop. Your objection?
Ms. Montoya: Goes beyond the scope of cross.
Judge Baca: What’s your response?
Tomas Benevidez: Your Honor, there were... The cross had to do with Ms Montoya talking about... Let me find the exact... Ms. Montoya asked whether he was a spiritual leader to him or to the community or to the church and I’m following up, by asking a question regarding the chair, which is a process in which the...
Judge Baca: Ok. Maybe you should approach.
Sidebar
Judge Baca: You may proceed Mr. Benevidez.
Tomas Benevidez: Thank you, your Honor. What is the chair?
John Sayer: That was where, usually a minister or Michael or somebody that was in control of the meeting at the time, would ask certain people certain questions, usually personal questions about their life. And it just kinda got real personal, kinda like a... almost like a confession type situation.
Tomas Benevidez: Did it become a word that basically was used by the community in a different way?
John Sayer: Well, it’s kinda been used all through the whole time I was in the church.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Was it a comfortable experience or uncomfortable experience?
John Sayer: Well, it’s kinda like being up in front of you all. It’s not real comfortable.
(Courtroom erupts in laughter)
John Sayer: It was personal. I mean, you know, they would ask you real personal questions and so, yeah, sometimes it was very hard.
Tomas Benevidez: Did Mr. Bent ever put you in the chair?
John Sayer: I don’t think so.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Were you present when he put people in the chair?
John Sayer: Yeah, a couple times.
Tomas Benevidez: And you said personal questions... What was the meaning of? What was the reason for doing that?
Ms. Montoya: Your Honor.
Judge Baca: Ok. Let me cut to the chase. Was the chair used as punishment or somehow to exert Mr. Bent or other’s authority over other people in the community?
John Sayer: No, I don’t think so.
Judge Baca: Alright. Any other questions about the chair?
Tomas Benevidez: Yes your Honor, not about the chair. Was one of your sisters thrown out of the church?
Ms. Montoya: Objection, your Honor. Goes beyond the scope of cross.
Judge Baca: I’m sorry.
Ms. Montoya: Goes beyond the scope of cross.
Judge Baca: What is your response?
Tomas Benevidez: Your Honor, Ms. Montoya asked questions regarding children being separated in the church.
Ms. Montoya: No, I didn’t.
Tomas Benevidez: She had a follow up question regarding that.
Ms. Montoya: Not of this witness your Honor.
Judge Baca: I agree it is beyond the scope. Move on.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you trust Wayne Bent?
Ms. Montoya: Objection. Asked and answered.
Judge Baca: I agree. It has been asked and answered. Sustained.
Tomas Benevidez: You were shown some photographs of some individuals. Were they children?
John Sayer: No.
Tomas Benevidez: Were they touched on their breast bone?
John Sayer: Yeah.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Were they naked at the time they were touched?
John Sayer: No.
Tomas Benevidez: No further questions.
Judge Baca questions the witness John Sayer.
Judge Baca: Alright, I do have some questions. Mr. Sayer, when you and Mrs. Sayer were not living on the property, yet your children were on the property, who were they with?
John Sayer: My mom and my youngest sister lived on the property and they ate with them a lot. That’s pretty much, that’s who I put in, basically, care of them.
Judge Baca: And why did you not take them with you from the property? Why did you leave them there maybe?
John Sayer: Because, when we first moved off the property, they wanted to move off with us and about a month after that, they decided to move back and me and my wife didn’t. And so we left them go back.
Judge Baca: Ok. And how old were the children when that occurred?
John Sayer: I’m not sure.
Judge Baca: What is it that Mr. Bent has done to make you and the other followers in this community believe that he’s the Messiah?
John Sayer: Well, I don’t necessarily now.
Judge Baca: Ok. But at that time you were...
John Sayer: At the time... well, everybody that was following Wayne Bent was wanting saved. And Michael, Wayne, said that, he, you know, that God came to him and told him he was Messiah and he told us all to go pray about it and decide, you know, or have God tell us if he was or wasn’t. And so, pretty much everybody that has still followed him still believes it, that he is.
Judge Baca: Alright. How are the virgins chosen, these seven virgins that you talked about?
John Sayer: Uhm... Well, Michael had a meeting with all the virgins of the land, the young kids that hadn’t ever been with a man. He asked them to go pray and ask God if they were to be one of the seven. And so they did that. And it took a little while and they started coming to him and saying that, "God told me that I was one of the seven."
Judge Baca: And that included your two daughters?
John Sayer: Yes.
Judge Baca: And did you object to that?
John Sayer: No. Not at that time. No.
Judge Baca: Alright. Are there any questions from the State based on the questions that the Court has asked? Tomas Benevidez: No, your Honor.
Judge Baca: Ok. From the Defense?
Ms. Montoya: Yes. Mr. Sayer, as to the seven, these were the seven that were chosen to pour out the plagues... Correct?
John Sayer: Correct.
Ms. Montoya: And when you weren’t living on the land and you let your girls go back to live on the land you said they ate with my mom sometimes.
John Sayer: Right.
Ms. Montoya: Who did they live with primarily?
John Sayer: Well, they pretty much were on their own.
Ms. Montoya: Ok.
John Sayer: I mean my mom was there, but they were pretty much on their own.
Ms. Montoya: Ok. Thank you.
Judge Baca: Alright. May this witness be excused?
Tomas Benevidez: Yes your Honor.
Judge Baca: Is he subject to recall?
Tomas Benevidez: No, your Honor.
Ms. Montoya: Yes, your Honor. He is on our witness list.
Judge Baca: Ok. So, you may be excused for today. You may be subject to recall. Thank you for your presentation and your testimony here today.
Back to Transcripts menu
To return to the trial "transcripts menu," click the "Trial" tab at the top of this page.