Prosecution Direct Elsa Sayer
Prosecution Direct Elsa Sayer - Tomas Benevidez for the State
Judge Baca: Good morning ladies and gentlemen from the jury we’re prepared to continue with presentation of evidence from the State. The State may call its next witness.
Tomas Benevidez: Your Honor, the State would call Ms. Elsa Sayer.
Judge Baca: Ok.
Elsa Sayer is sworn in by Judge Baca
Judge Baca: Have a seat there and state your name.
Elsa Sayer: My name is Elsa Sayer.
Judge Baca: Alright, Mr. Benevidez you may proceed.
Tomas Benevidez: Thank you your Honor. Good morning Ms. Sayer. Could you please state your full name for the record and spell your last name.
Elsa Sayer: Elsa Jean Sayer, S-A-Y-E-R.
Tomas Benevidez: Ms. Sayer, it’s very difficult to hear you, you’re kinda behind some sound barriers there. Can you try to get closer to the mike and speak up so everyone can hear you, especially the jury.
Elsa Sayer: My name is Elsa Sayer and my last name is spelled S-A-Y-E-R.
Tomas Benevidez: Thank you. Where are you presently living?
Elsa Sayer: Clayton, New Mexico.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And do you have children?
Elsa Sayer: I have two children.
Tomas Benevidez: What are their names?
Elsa Sayer: My oldest is A.S. and my youngest is L.S.
Tomas Benevidez: How old is A.S.?
Elsa Sayer: She’s eighteen.
Tomas Benevidez: And what’s her date of birth?
Elsa Sayer: August second of nineteen ninety (August 2, 1990).
Tomas Benevidez: And your other daughter is L.S.?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: What’s her date of birth?
Elsa Sayer: August twenty eighth of nineteen ninety-one (August 28, 1991).
Tomas Benevidez: 0k. And at one point did you live on what is called the land? And do you call it the land?
Elsa Sayer: Uhm... I call it the land sometimes. I lived on the land, yes.
Tomas Benevidez: What do you call it?
Elsa Sayer: It... different things. The land will work.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you feel comfortable calling it the land?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: When did you move onto the land?
Elsa Sayer: In about two thousand (2000).
Tomas Benevidez: And how long were you involved with, I guess the church or the new religion?
Elsa Sayer: About sixteen years.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok, can you kinda tell us your background and how you became part of this church and what’s the church called?
Elsa Sayer: The Lord Our Righteousness.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. How did you become involved in that church?
Elsa Sayer: Through my husband.
Tomas Benevidez: And who is your husband?
Elsa Sayer: John Sayer.
Tomas Benevidez: And can you kinda tell the court and the jury how you became a member through your husband and what time that was. What year was that?
Elsa Sayer: The very first meeting that I went to was in nineteen ninety (1990). It was called, The Burn. And my husband’s mother was first involved in the church and that’s how I was introduced to it, through my husband’s mother, through my husband. Tomas Benevidez: Ok. How did you interact with the church? Kinda tell us your background. Did you stay on land? Where you originally from? How did you come to stay on an RV?
Ms. Montoya: Objection, your Honor. The Prosecution is leading the witness.
Judge Baca: I’m not sure it’s leading. I think he’s suggesting a topic to focus on, so I’ll overrule that objection.
Elsa Sayer: How did we come to live on an RV? It was easier. We could move. We could live on the land in the RV’s.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. So when you first started in the church, how did you and John interact with the other members of the church?
Elsa Sayer: We went to meetings together. We were a family. We ate together. We laughed together.
Tomas Benevidez: And where did you originally stay?
Elsa Sayer: At the very beginning?
Tomas Benevidez: Yes.
Elsa Sayer: Uhm... in the very beginning we lived in Powell, Wyoming.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok.
Elsa Sayer: Before we moved into our RV.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And how long did you live in Powell Wyoming?
Elsa Sayer: A couple years for sure, I’m not sure.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And from there, where did you go?
Elsa Sayer: We went to Sand Point Idaho.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And how long did you stay in Sand Point Idaho?
Elsa Sayer: In the summer we would be in Sand Point and in the winter we would go down south, because it was inconvenient to be where there was snow in RV’s.
Tomas Benevidez: And you say we, who do you mean by we?
Elsa Sayer: My husband and I and other family members and other church members.
Tomas Benevidez: Can you kinda describe how the church was organized at that time.
Elsa Sayer: Uhm... kinda like any other church. We had scheduled meetings. We had times to meet.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And can you kinda... after you went from Idaho, where did you go next?
Elsa Sayer: Yuma, Arizona was our wintering...
Tomas Benevidez: Ok.
Elsa Sayer: ...area.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And how long did you do that?
Elsa Sayer: We went north and south until about two thousand (2000).
Tomas Benevidez: And in two thousand, where did you go?
Elsa Sayer: In about two thousand, we moved to the New Mexico property.
Tomas Benevidez: And can you kinda tell us, you know, the everyday life of what you did as part of Our Lord Our Righteousness Church?
Elsa Sayer: Everyday life it was... we lived.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Did you have regular meetings?
Elsa Sayer: In the beginning we did.
Tomas Benevidez: When did that change?
Elsa Sayer: It started changing in two thousand.
Tomas Benevidez: How did it change?
Elsa Sayer: There wasn’t really set times all the time. It became...
Tomas Benevidez: Set times for what?
Elsa Sayer: Meetings
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And how long did your meetings last?
Elsa Sayer: It varied.
Tomas Benevidez: Can you give us a minimum time and a maximum time?
Elsa Sayer: Five minutes to eight hours.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And what were your meetings about?
Elsa Sayer: About different things that were going on at the time.
Tomas Benevidez: You mentioned that things changed when you moved in two thousand. What were the significant things that changed in your church?
Elsa Sayer: The meeting times was one of 'em, where there wasn’t set meeting times, you had to listen to Father’s voice, instead of having a set time.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Did anything change about the defendant Wayne Bent?
Elsa Sayer: He became, he claimed to be Messiah in two thousand (2000).
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Is he in the court room today?
Elsa Sayer: Yes he is.
Tomas Benevidez: Can you describe him to the court and to the jury.
Elsa Sayer: He’s right there. (Laughs)
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. What does he look like?
Elsa Sayer: He looks like a sixty some year old gentleman.
Tomas Benevidez: Could the Court please note that the witness has identified the defendant.
Judge Baca: The record will so reflect.
Tomas Benevidez: What else changed on the land, when you moved to the land?
Elsa Sayer: Things didn’t change right away. It took a few years for some things to change.
Tomas Benevidez: What things changed?
Elsa Sayer: Uhm... well I’ve already mentioned the meetings was one thing that changed. There was a lot of things. I...
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. How did your children interact with the other children on the land?
Elsa Sayer: In the beginning they acted, they would play and get together. It was normal. Towards the end, towards the last few years, there was a separation between boys and girls and they didn’t play anymore like they used to.
Tomas Benevidez: Who suggested those separations?
Elsa Sayer: I think it was suggested by the leaders of the church.
Tomas Benevidez: And who were the leaders of the church?
Elsa Sayer: In the early years, there was more ministers than one. In the last seven years it was basically Michael, or Wayne.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. What other suggestions were made about the rules, while you lived on the land?
Elsa Sayer: It was suggested to wear dresses. I don’t know if I would have been able to stay on the land if I didn’t wear a dress. I didn’t, I don’t know.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. What about schooling?
Elsa Sayer: Schooling, schooling was important unless there was a heavy spiritual thing going on. And then it wasn’t important. The spiritual thing was more important. And so, even if that spiritual thing took a year, two weeks, schooling was set aside.
Tomas Benevidez: So, there were points where your children specifically and other children would not attend school or do schooling for a year?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Did you have to ever give up your belongings?
Elsa Sayer: I wouldn’t say...
Ms. Montoya: Objection, your Honor. May we approach?
Judge Baca: Certainly.
Sidebar
Judge Baca: Alright, you may proceed Mr. Benevidez.
Tomas Benevidez: Thank you, your Honor. How did you communicate religious ideas on the land or direction on the land?
Elsa Sayer: Usually... my religious ideas or the religious ideas of the community?
Tomas Benevidez: The religious ideas of the community.
Elsa Sayer: Usually they were, we had meetings and Michael directed the meetings and, or posts.
Tomas Benevidez: And what are posts?
Elsa Sayer: Posts were like letters written and posted on the internet.
Tomas Benevidez: And where, who directed most of those meetings once you lived on the land?
Elsa Sayer: Michael, or Wayne, did.
Tomas Benevidez: Were your children considered, at one point, part of the seven virgins?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Can you tell us how that came about?
Elsa Sayer: How the seven virgins came about?
Tomas Benevidez: Yes.
Elsa Sayer: I believe, Father, God, impressed it on Michael about the seven virgins and then he told us about it.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And what did the seven virgins represent?
Elsa Sayer: To my understanding in the beginning it had to do with the seven plagues.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And how were they selected?
Elsa Sayer: They were to go to Father and see if it was put upon their heart to be one of the seven.
Tomas Benevidez: And your two daughters were two of the seven?
Elsa Sayer: Yes, in the beginning.
Tomas Benevidez: And can you tell us what the seven were supposed to do?
Elsa Sayer: To my understanding they were to pour out the plagues on the world.
Tomas Benevidez: Were they to do anything else?
Elsa Sayer: (long pause) I’m not... clear on anything else.
Tomas Benevidez: Were they to do anything like be Wayne’s husband?
Elsa Sayer: We were... everybody in the church was to be married to Michael, to Wayne.
Tomas Benevidez: Were the virgins supposed to lay skin to skin?
Elsa Sayer: It wasn’t a legal requirement, but it was a good thing in the church’s eyes.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Was it a good thing in your eyes?
Elsa Sayer: No.
Tomas Benevidez: At one point did you believe in Michael?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you today?
Elsa Sayer: No.
Tomas Benevidez: What changed?
Elsa Sayer: Him laying naked with my daughters.
Tomas Benevidez: And did your daughters disclose to you that they laid naked with Michael?
Elsa Sayer: Not until after the fact.
Tomas Benevidez: When, after the fact, did they disclose that to you?
Elsa Sayer: A.S., I don’t remember when she disclosed it to me. L.S., I think it was about a month.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. And did she say how many times she laid naked with Michael?
Elsa Sayer: She has told me, but I don’t remember. I know it was once for sure. And she’s told me now that it was more than once, but I don’t remember the exact amount.
Tomas Benevidez: Did A.S. tell you she laid naked with Michael?
Elsa Sayer: Not until later.
Tomas Benevidez: And how many times did A.S. say she laid with Michael naked?
Elsa Sayer: Once to my knowledge, but that could be inaccurate.
Tomas Benevidez: Were their experiences different?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: How so?
Elsa Sayer: A.S., after she laid naked...
Ms. Montoya: Objection, your Honor.
Judge Baca: I’m sorry.
Ms. Montoya: I’m going to object.
Judge Baca: You’re going to object?
Ms. Montoya: Yes.
Judge Baca: Alright, you may approach.
Sidebar
Judge Baca: Alright, you may proceed Mr. Benevidez.
Tomas Benevidez: Thank you your Honor. Ms. Sayer, have you formed opinions on how your two daughter’s experiences were different?
Elsa Sayer: I know they were different.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. How?
Elsa Sayer: A.S. felt like committing suicide afterwards. And L.S. hasn’t.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. How has L.S. felt?
Elsa Sayer: I don’t know a hundred percent, because she’s not totally free with her emotions about it.
Tomas Benevidez: Does she have feelings towards Michael or Wayne Bent?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: What are those feelings?
Elsa Sayer: I believe she’s in love with him.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you have an opinion on whether or not you trust Michael?
Elsa Sayer: I don’t now.
Tomas Benevidez: Why?
Elsa Sayer: I feel he violated my trust... by doing what he did with my daughters.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you believe that Michael influenced your daughters to lie naked with him?
Elsa Sayer: In a subtle way, yes.
Tomas Benevidez: What do you mean by a subtle way?
Elsa Sayer: Well, he didn’t out right say, "Come lay naked with me." There was posts that said, "You need to be naked with God."
Tomas Benevidez: Ok.
Elsa Sayer: And if he’s Messiah, he’s God.
Tomas Benevidez: Thank you. How has this affected your family?
Elsa Sayer: (long pause, short breaths as though starting to cry ) Excuse me for a moment.
Tomas Benevidez: Do you need some water?
Elsa Sayer: (in gentle crying tones) I’ve ah... My youngest daughter, L.S., I feel like I lost her in a way. My oldest daughter struggles with a lot of different things.
Tomas Benevidez: What things?
Elsa Sayer: She’s angry inside and hurt.
Tomas Benevidez: Your oldest daughter?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. A.S.?
Elsa Sayer: A.S.
Tomas Benevidez: What about you, personally?
Elsa Sayer: I guess I felt angry and hurt and confused sometimes. It was sixteen years of my life.
Tomas Benevidez: Has it affected you and your husband’s relationship?
Elsa Sayer: Yes, it has.
Tomas Benevidez: How?
Elsa Sayer: It was encouraged to be married to God only and that meant loving God over your spouses, over your children, and if there was an argument between your spouse, then you weren’t married and you needed to separate, because you were not in complete harmony. And it affected my husband in that he loved me and he wanted to be with me, but he wanted to be right and go to Heaven and do what was right and so he wanted to separate also. And its just... it's affected... it’s been hard.
Tomas Benevidez: How’s it affected the relationship between your two daughters?
Elsa Sayer: Uhm... it was encouraged in the church for the children to listen to God’s voice, even over their parents. And so, if I told my daughters to do the dishes and it was on their heart to go on a walk to be with God, they were to listen to the go on the walk, rather than to do what they were told. They would come back later and do that, but the Father’s voice came first.
Tomas Benevidez: And who suggested that?
Elsa Sayer: Wayne, Michael, suggested that.
Tomas Benevidez: How about their relationship as sisters? Were they close before this incident happened?
Elsa Sayer: Yes, they were very close.
Tomas Benevidez: And what about the relationship now?
Elsa Sayer: They are not close.
Tomas Benevidez: And how, can you describe it?
Elsa Sayer: (crying again as she speaks, this time more intensely) Well, my oldest daughter would sometimes be in her room just crying, saying, I just want my sister back. And... it’s... they’re not close like they used to be. They still get along, but it’s not the same.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. (Long pause) I’m just giving her a chance your Honor.
(pause evidently for witness to gain composure)
Tomas Benevidez: Ms. Sayer, did you ever report this incident to the police?
Elsa Sayer: Yes, I did.
Tomas Benevidez: When did you report it?
Elsa Sayer: I don’t remember the year. It was before the CYFD came out to officially take the children, when we went out with the Sheriff to get my daughter the first time.
Tomas Benevidez: Who did you report it to?
Elsa Sayer: I believe we talked to Colleen.
Tomas Benevidez: And do you know who she is?
Elsa Sayer: She was... I believe, the Undersheriff.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Colleen Johnston?
Elsa Sayer: Yes.
Tomas Benevidez: And did you and John talk to the police or was it you or did both of you go?
Elsa Sayer: Yes, we both went.
Tomas Benevidez: Ok. Pass the witness, your Honor.
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